Show notes
Watch us on YouTube: https://youtu.be/Yv85qru7pFI
Franziska Hauck is a coach, consultant and mediator. With her experience as a people lead, she coaches engineering managers, developers and primarily those working in tech. She has consulted startups, content hubs and bootcamp providers. Previously regional lead for the developer relations community programs at Google, she has also worked as a project manager and community manager.
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/franziskahauck/
- Twitter: https://twitter.com/_francied
- Franziska’s favorite micro-animal - tardigrades: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tardigrade
- Franziska’s website with resources: https://fh-digital.org/
- Check her Youtube talk on the topic of developer insights in Germany 2020: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyVgj5sSsG8
- Franziska’s Youtube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6UcpoAaXlHYjQh_ugXGbww/featured
- Shout out to: https://accessibility-club.org/
Transcription
TIMEA: Hey Ramón!
RAMÓN: Hey Timea!
TIMEA: Let’s talk, gender equality.
RAMÓN: I love the idea. Gimme a second. I just got to grab my coffee. I hope you’ve got yours too.
TIMEA: Yeah, right here.
TIMEA: Welcome to another podcast on gender equality over coffee. And Ramon And me are delighted to have today. Franziska, on our show. Hi, Franziska.
FRANZISKA: Hello.
RAMÓN: Hey there. I’m so excited to have you here, Franziska. And if I may share through the world, we are recording today on your birthday. So let me on behalf of our listeners, wish you a very happy birthday.
TIMEA: Happy birthday.
RAMÓN: Yeah. I can’t believe that you took the time to record with us. This is such an honor. And you know, we want to make this as fun for you as possible. So for our listeners, Franziska, why don’t you tell us a little about yourself? Maybe fun nickname. And do. Please follow it up with three random things about yourself.
FRANZISKA: It’s actually intriguing to note that I am not a big fan of nicknames. So I Do get called Fran a lot of the times of Franzi the German sort of nickname. But I do go by Franziska, only. So usually that’ my as you would call it, nickname. My full name basically And for three things that I would say Define me or that people Might not know about me I’m a huge fan of tardigrades I’m not sure if you know what tardigrades are.
TIMEA: Me not.
RAMÓN: They are… no I’m gonna make a Fool of myself. Please tell us.
FRANZISKA: You are on the right track. They are these little tiny, microscopic beings that you can find everywhere on this planet. And they’re actually superheroes. So you can freeze them, you can cook them, you can put them in space. They will survive. They will just come back to lifem And they have seemingly eternal life And they’re just amazing. And. They also look, really really cute. And that combination I find is also kind of a macro for diversity, right? Things that might seemingly look cute, actually have. Great strength in them. So a huge set of tardigrades. And two other facts about me, I once stood on a stage with the rapper Tiger. If that tells you something,
RAMÓN: I’m afraid I’m terrible at musicians!
TIMEA: He’s in Germany?
FRANZISKA: No, no. He’s a US rapperonce was linked with one of the Kardashian, Jenners and I was at his concert in Munich, and I was dancing and I’m doing my thing. And then they were like, Franziska come up on stage. And there were a couple of people.
TIMEA: That’s the next level public speaking fear for me in front of a huge stage with a wellknown rapper. That’s something.
FRANZISKA: Yeah, but the fun fact was that all of the other people went towards him. And I was like, Yeah, I’m on stage. And I just enjoyed that kind of a little bit more than. No proximity. There are no videos as far as I know. But I’m a big big. Afrobeats and dance all and hip hop in and so forth. So it was an honor to be called up them and to be able to do my thing. And the third fact that again not a lot Of people know about me. My grandparents had a sort of part time Farm and I grew Up there A lot of the time and my time childhood spent a lot of time there. And I Actually harvested potatoes, helped with slaughtering animals Like all of those things. So I know what it’s like countryside and Harvest All kinds Of things, also, Hey was always a big thing. And now that I live in the big city and work in Tech, it’s like two different forms Of life, I would say, but I still grounded Through this because I know where food Is coming From and what needs to be invested to have that. And Yeah, it was a nice childhood from that angle and I Don’T ever Want to harvest potatoes again. It’s very hard.
RAMÓN: I already have a bad time peeling potatoes. I can’t imagine harvesting them.
TIMEA: Actually, I liked actually that part of harvesting. I found it because I also have. I had the opportunity to be on the farm with my grandparents and all that. And I found it already amazing because potato was my favorite vegetable. Now it’s avocado, but how they were growing there and their like underground caves and the fact that you pull it out and it comes and then, I don’t know, I still feel very happy that I experienced that part and I want harvest potatoes. I still like to a better than the part with the animals. That part. I. I leave it for the speak farmers, I suppose.
RAMÓN: I love what you said, Franziska, about having these different perspectives from childhood because I think you would perhaps agree with me that having these having these different experiences and backgrounds is what makes really good tech industries in diversity as well. This is a big topic of your work, isn’t it? Diversity and in different industries, particularly tech. I would love to hear what what’s your background there? How did you get started in promoting diversity in tech?
FRANZISKA: I think for me, a large part is just frustration. Because I feel like I cross a lot of the boxes is sort of when we look towards diversity. I’m a woman For one thing, I identify a woman and the other is that I live with chronic illnesses and that makes me have a couple of mannerisms, That are different. That say from the typical or standard that you would expect. So I always kind of stood out with it and I was also vocal at the same time. It and always making sure that people understood me and knew where I was coming from But still it’s a lot of emotional Work at the same time. Then the other part is basically My mom And her discovering feminism In the 90s, which was a big, big Motor for me. Still to this Day is a big, big motor. And then again, growing up in a very sort of patriarchal family and structures and then just realizing that there are As you said, Ramón There are So many different Things out there and it’s Great that we Are diverse. It’s great that we have the opportunity to have seen different things in life, which essentially all of the studies point wards makes better products make better services if you incorporate that But just generally sort of to have that diversity represented and Around you and enjoy that as well and to have that opportunity. So I feel like it’s this mixture of frustration, but also sort of liking to break patterns and challenging the status Quo. And At least in my case, not being afraid Of being different. Embracing That in a way. And With that, making sure that I can Pave the Way for people that come After me be that because they’re women all be that because they live with chronic illnesses as well. So every Time I would Feel that I Have the opportunity To speak up and out, I would do so. And I continue to do so because I Have been in situations Where people have done that for me before. And I appreciate that because that gives me opportunities at the end of the day, there Are still a lot of things that go wrong. As you both well know, things where we have sort of very large percentages of people of one particular sort of what we perceive them to be And that makes Monolithic environments and to Break that up and To make sure that we have more diverse environments, you need to take those steps. So I think again, for me, it’s a mixture. But first of all, frustration is a very, very good motor to have because You only Basically tackle things that You care about That kind of make you frustrated. In a way, if you didn’t care, you wouldn’t Do anything. So Sometimes it can be good to use That frustration as a positive motor to tackle things.
TIMEA: Then it would make perfect sense why you were drawn to job descriptions that have to do with program management. Because that’s how we both met you. Basically, you were a product manager at that time.
FRANZISKA: I kind of transitioned into this because I was largely in community work. But in essence, in community work, you Have a lot of topics of diversity as well and Working at Google, it was sort of this transition From being in community management, going over to program management in the realm of community. So there Were a lot of Similarities and I had done a lot of project management beforehand as well. So It kind of seemed like this Natural pathway for me to have sort Of an Even More organizational Focus or more project management focus, I should say, but still Have That big label of community within that role and
TIMEA: Just a quick point. So we both met Franziska while she was the program manager at Women Techmakers for Google’s side. For dACH, I believe it was for the whole region that was about two years ago about that about that time. And so what role are you now? Because you said it was a natural flow from maybe project management to program what now.
FRANZISKA: Actually, I feel like I am in many ways of a career changer, but also a career adapter in a way because there has always been this natural. Flow from A to B and there was always this link At this point I still do a lot of project management work because I’m Involved in a lot of change management initiatives But What I do as a people lead, what I’m currently working a lead is basically I have my focus On people. So people leads are in Essence Disciplinary managers of technical teams. I have two Delivery teams that I take care Of and Just like an engineering Manager, they Are not coding on A day to day basis. I don’t Do that as well, but I have an Even stronger focus on people. So in essence I’m The hiring Manager for the teams. I take care of the teams with a strong focus on coaching. So I have individual coaching but also team coachings. I make sure that people can thrive In the environment That they are in. I empower them. I teach to a certain degree about communication Methods. And I recently did a workshop on Positive communication, but I also try to empower my Team members to think About Concepts of diversity. For example, because with The allyship that They provide, they can change the environment as well, And then on top of that, I do a Lot of, as I said, change management Initiatives A lot of work that goes into sort of making sure that the transition that we have from towards An organization That have autonomous teams where you have an environment where diversities embrace and so forth So I could quote a Couple more points. But in Essence, to a company That and to make sure that we have projects that enable our team members, but To go back to that point of Empowering people At the same time. I’m also doing a coaching certification, and I recently Finished my mediation certification and seeing how I can employ these skills in the environment of tech is Really rewarding for me because I see People Thriving. In Essence, when you’re A coach, you believe that the person Brings all of the necessary. Skills and what they need to go forward with them. They have that in them inherently. But you Activate That and help them find those resources and you give them the impulse. So it’s more of being enabler. Rather Than sort Of being in the role of I Teach you how to Do things and then you need to follow upon that it’s less of a sort of directive based leadership. And that’s what I really enjoy about the role. I’m not Alone in this. I have a couple of great colleagues around me who come from all over the world and have all kinds Of different experiences. And that as a group also makes us really, really diverse and gives us the tools to provide various perspectives to our team members as well.
TIMEA: That’s so fascinating. I have already a lot of points I want to touch upon. For example, how many teams do you or can you coach consult have under your wing at the same time?
FRANZISKA: That’s a good question, because I think resource is the most Important point. We have a dual leadership system, which means that of course I don’t take care Of my team members from a functional technical point of view. So I don’t do code reviews or I don’t have programs and we have functional leads for that as well. But At the same time, you also need to look towards What kind of resources do you have so that you can enable every single team member in a good way? And currently I have two teams Around about 15 16 people I used to have three teams Where we are growing. So I Pass on A team to my new colleague. So that’s great to see For me, it’s not necessarily In how often Do I meet with people? But what do I do with the time that I have with them? So how much of a qualitative time can I help with them? So I do Have regular 1:1’s But I also offer the opportunity to have separate coaching sessions with me and also obviously all of The other Aspects. As I said, finishing a mediation certification you do tend to also think about ways means how you can enable people and sort of a level that’s More than 1:1. So You have group workshops and so forth. Feedback Culture is A big big topic. I Feel that looking around In the industry, we’re not really giving feedback In A good way and making sure that they are just breaking It down To basic models and people can adapt and understand that already makes the culture so much better in the long run. But it does take a lot of work, Yes, and I take a lot of input and you also shouldn’t underestimate The emotional load that comes with it and having A good Center yourself as a People. It is very, very important. Also, knowing your own emotional landscape really well helps to make sure that you can then provide that calmness in that Center for your team members.
RAMÓN: I’m wondering, you’ve built up this vast experience in people coaching and 1:1’s. And I’m eager to know as someone who actually just this week did their first ever one on 1 tech career 1:1’s I’m trying it out for underrepresented folks in the Spanish speaking world. One thing I would love to know is, how long did it take you to get to a level where you felt like this was something that you could do naturally, something that was easy. Say, if I say if a theoretical me was wanting to start looking into giving better feedback and that sort of thing.
FRANZISKA: I always have to be very cautious because I fall into my coach mode really, really quickly And I would Put all those questions to you and try to give you those impulses. But since we are in a podcast situation I try to hold myself back When I look back. I do feel that I’ve always had a communicative knack and that helped me really well in community Work Just being able to break that say complicated messages down to the nitty gritty. But What I really liked was that again, sometimes simple models Are the best best thing That you can have very early on in my career. I had a colleague who explained to us what nonviolent communication Was And what I wouldn’t say at that point I practiced it really well. I’m trying to practice It more and more. It Did give me sort of a lifeline in how Can I phrase Messages in a good way? And how can I understand people? And how can I enable them to also then in turn, communicate with me very well? What I also see in my 1:1s Is that I focus my attention Completely on the other person It’s not about My ego, what I Have to say and so forth that that might be interesting for a podcast situation But not in a 1:1. It’s not about me. I saw The ability To listen and To actively Listen Positive. Paraphrasing is a good Tool for that and also making sure that you ask questions on whether you understood something correctly helps a lot as well. And That, in essence Combined with big drive and big desire to enable people I think Are a good Mixture, but going Out there reading, trying to find Good Models And things That work well for you Because It should never be a dogma. It should always Be the thing that you can adapt for yourself and to your style and to your personality I think that works Really well and that’s what I have seen in the industry also support a lot of engineering managers out there to get into the role that they’ve sort of Conscious. They have consciously taken That step of I want to acquire this knowledge In how can I communicate better? How can I coach? How can I mentor And how at the end of the day, it’s also Necessary mediate between people So that additional skill set helps a Lot and Widely reading. Exchanging With people being Coached as well helps A lot. There Are various ways and means To arrive at the end destination and none is the most perfect One Is just what is the most perfect one for yourself?
RAMÓN: Thank you. That’s awesome.
TIMEA: I have to think very much now. Okay, so how about diversity? How does this fit in your job? How do you manage to sensibilize people? And I think you’re a big fan on topics on accessibility. Also, lately, I’ve seen the post tell us a bit about this aspect in the job.
FRANZISKA: That is a very good question, because in essence, what I’ve observed. And both in the community, but also in my role is that oftentimes What is the knowledge That we start off with? I Feel like after years of being active in the sea, I have myself a bubble on Twitter and I get all of the tweets and things that are happening. And that also makes me question myself To the point where, for example, stop saying things are weird or awkward because that is connected oftentimes to things like neurodiversity and so forth. So I do Have that information Coming towards me now with the system that I have built A lot of people haven’t had that And Specifically when You are in a scenario where you’re part of the majority, there’s Often the question, have you had those Experiences Timea, You and I, we’ve probably both had our share of Experiences as women in tech. And I could Probably Write a book about that by this point. But I’ve gone through it In a way. So I Had that experience. So I in turn get that frustration. So I Want to do something about it often That’S when There is not this level of I’ve had those experiences myself And I also haven’t Observed it Then how familiar is it to me? So that’s the essence of just informing People about what are some of the things that are going on that they should be aware of? But It’S also about this level of Consciousness in a way. Oftentimes I found that talking to people, there is a lack of perception That, for Example, discrimination happens to Other people and just Creating that level of empathy. That is, I feel Key in understanding how to be an ally and that’s the end goal, ultimately to be an eye Even I as a person of a marginalized Group, can be an ally to other people in specific scenarios and empathy Is crucial in so many Aspects. It Does not only pertain to diversity. It Pertains to a lot Of other fields like good collaboration is In essence, based on empathy, understanding where the other person Is coming From and that they are new to this and they are struggling and they need something to help them and to enable them. So Just sowing the seeds I feel is very, very Important But also a complete embracing Of people If there is a person who comes to you and says, well, I don’t see it happening. And I Cannot imagine that there is, for example, discrimination going on How do you deal with that? You can create a line and basically Be strong in Your position. And then you Will argue at the end of the day. But if You embrace that person And you ask questions And You get to know Them that often creates an opening For people to be like, Oh, okay. So that Is your experience. It might not always click in the first conversation But at least they get your your point of view and your perspective. And then They can over time empathize and same for me. I’ve had scenarios where I was confronted with something that Was like Not sure is that really the case. But then over time, I learned More about this aspect. And then I got more sensitized for it, if you will So that is also very important. I feel like and just interest, generally. Hustling, hustling, hustling, making sure that you have the right markers for Reducing biases in the pairing process. For example Making sure that you do the Extra work and you go out there and you talk To people that You feel like would be a great addition to your team Speaking, speaking up and out, I often specifically women that are younger than me often experience them to Be like Oh, I don’t want to go to the Front and talk about that. But In essence, you should raise your hand for up there for empowering others as well. It does take a lot of resource And it Looks from at least from the outside. Like Is it Worthwhile it’s? Worth it? It is. But it is definitely not an easy process. And you have to put In the work. So Again, I feel like it’s a balance. It’s a mix of things that are, Let’s say bit more ephemeral in a way, and Making sure that you understand people’s minds and where they are coming from. But Also what is The hard work that you need to do? And that is, in essence, a lot of the things that we have seen in the literature in the debates on Twitter and so forth of what we all should do as people with a specific level of power and being those allies in these scenarios. And Ally ship at the end of the day is if I could turn everyone into an Ally, I would. I would put out my magic wand in the it people would all be allies for each other. Can I do that? No. But I can at least try To spread a little bit of my magic.
TIMEA: This is such a wonderful sentence to wish everybody to be an ally. I’ve heard lately a lot more about allyship. And I think at least in Austria it’s something that is not talked enough about. But I want to know for your knowledge personally, where do you go to get this kind of resources, information now being about allyship or about a particular topic on gender equality or something in diversity? Yes. You listen to people and you learn a lot. I agree, but ally ship at the end of the day, still workshop or resource.
FRANZISKA: I’ve mentioned it a couple of times. I think Twitter is a really good source. It’s just following it and then your timeline is automatically put together nicely. Same goes for LinkedIn, obviously So All of the Social platforms that you can leverage there, that’s really good What I’ve also found is very Very Useful. False, my people eat colleagues In the Sense that they are wide, red and they Can recommend great books on the matter So just asking your peer group, your Colleagues, people in your network, in your community Network. In general, it does not only have to Be on social, we’re Now in a situation where We don’t Meet up in person and it’s we always have to do things on Zoom and we all get Zoom fatigue. But at the end of the day, networking is so crucial, not just as a tool To get information, but to Also build Up those connections and to get those opportunities To kind of create Those opportunities for yourself But Yeah, it’s listening a lot of the time it’s being open and at the end of the day, that’s what I always emphasize Is this Super painful process of confronting Your own biases. If you’re Not willing to do that Chances Are not very high and I can personally tell I’ve had my moments where it Hurt badly where I had this realization Of Myself. Oh, my goodness, is that what I’m actually Thinking But we all have the patterns That we were raised with. And sometimes You need to challenge them. And that can Be a painful process. But once You do that and once you get out Of that process, you realize that you’ve gained so much more And In Essence not being afraid Of also hearing those experiences of other people and taking them on and making sure that that empathy level is there, I feel is crucial and then it’s again putting in the work and making sure that you’re up to date reading, taking the time and exchanging with people.
TIMEA: Thank you so much for the insight. Like, I’m learning a lot.
RAMÓN: I think I heard it from Kim Crayton in one of her talks. She said that she wants us to learn to embrace being uncomfortable. And that hit me like a ton of bricks because it’s just what it is. The work will make us uncomfortable, of course, relative to our level of privilege myself being a white man, I’ve got a lot more work to do and a lot more learning to do a lot more listening to do. And so this hearing this just means a lot to me. Thank you for putting it so well.
FRANZISKA: Yeah, and you mentioning something that’s really important, I think over the last week or so I said that I cannot probably not imagine How it is, for example, to be a woman of color So having already my experiences as a white Woman and then Having sort of Seeing also Again On that time my time experiences or women of color What I can do is I can empathize And I can Try to understand Their perspective. What I can Never do Probably is understand Completely How that experience is But I can put in The work and making Sure that also others are aware of intersectionalities For example as well. So we Do have various Perspectives time You mentioned accessibility that is also something that I only discovered because Of talking About Living with chronic illnesses On a stage while I was job Hunting, by the Way And Then sort of finding that the accessibility community which beforehand was not Really I didn’t really consciously know that there was such a community out there and that there are these resources out there Also in that accessibility Community. I feel like we go through a lot of the processes of discovering how painful it can be when you realize That You have been building products, but you haven’t really thought about that particular group and to realizing that and making sure that you then Change Your ways and make Sure That accessibility is something that you look towards whether it’s website or other products because it’s not only website. It’s a very important mechanism to do.
RAMÓN: Excellent. I think as you said, always discovering new aspects of it and doing the work, it takes time too. Absolutely. I’m not sure you already mentioned could you give us a an estimate about how much time you’ve been doing this? And how much time you’ve dedicated to the work.
FRANZISKA: That Is an important aspect that I always underline because while I do live with chronic ones And they impact upon Not necessarily my time, but upon My energy Quite a lot which then impact upon my time because I have to spend time Just doing nothing I also say, I don’t have any kids and that’s a big big Big factor. If I had kids, it might be different because I would be taking care of those kids and I still have sort of that luxury of Having The ability to take Time out But in essence, what I would say is, as I mentioned, my mom discovered feminism in The 90s So That’S where It started for me and then just as a child and then also my teenage as Reading a lot about different cultures Around the world and Discovering Their history And a sort of what are the characteristics? I think that was a good baseline. And then I would say over the last 3-4-5 years consciously bit by bit Building up my knowledge base and Since Twitter and LinkedIn are sort of now well manipulated by me I wouldn’t say that I do this very consciously during the week, so it kind of comes to me. But then when I see that there is an interesting resource or something That I should familiarize Myself with, then I follow Up on it and then I would Estimate if I had to break It down probably half an hour to an hour every Week, plus the Aspects that come up in my work as well. So it’s a combination of that.
RAMÓN: Awesome. Thank you. So a big focus of our podcast is to also get people who are perhaps interested in getting involved doing the work to get started. And I’m wondering if someone who has been at this for a while. Do you have any advice for people who are interested to get started? Besides what you’ve already touched upon.
FRANZISKA: Network, network network network. Communities As The one that you are leading and driving It’S so essential And I mean This in More than one sense because Also looking at for Example, young women that are interested in going into tech or being in working in tech Network because this is essentially the community That will enable you to know About jobs that might Not be on the public boards and so forth But it also what you will have by that You will meet People of various Backgrounds and you will Exchange with Them and you will learn from them. You will meet people who are very experienced in their career and have seen a lot of things. You will meet young Folks who are Super Motivated and driven and come in with this curiosity and you just Generally expand your horizon famous traveling Right going out there seeing the world Again, you have to be able to Afford this. We shouldn’t underestimate this And also with community work and being active in communities. You also need To be able to afford it. So Can you take That time out from taking care of Your children And so forth? So I see this as two sides of the coin. We need to make sure that folks can have that opportunity But It’S also good to encourage folks To take the opportunity that’s there and to go out and venture forth and so forth. So As you can see, I’m always delving into the sort of subtext and making sure that we understand various situations. But Yeah, that’s what I would recommend And just Generally stay curious Wanting To learn Being open to learn and Listening Believing stories also and making sure that there Is a personal understanding Of what you Want to be as an ally, how you can support. And then as I said, getting out that magic one And spreading your margin.
RAMÓN: That is wonderfully put, I appreciate it so much.
TIMEA: And at the same time as a resource, I want to point to your website as well. https://fh-digital.org you write there interesting articles, blog posts and I think you’re available as a Speaker on the topics. I mean, that’s how I follow you online and you have your own content on YouTube as well. So we’re going to make sure to put this in the show notes if people want to talk to you on these topics.
FRANZISKA: Yeah, absolutely. And for me. As A really Good journey to this point Was, as I mentioned, discovering Accessibility and also Talking about things that at this point I felt nobody had really talked about which was accessibility for developers Sort of in the larger scheme of things. And so Far we had always seen A very strong focus on how to support developers who are blind or developer who are hard of hearing and so forth the tab. So that overall picture of also from the employer view of what you can do to ensure accessibility for your employees. So I Do think there are a couple of Talks online of mentioning that and going into detail there and also Obviously My research on stats for tech folks in Germany and also diversity there so Happy to support And to exchange on those topics any time. If somebody is interested.
RAMÓN: I saw that talk the one on the statistics that was incredible. I would love to add that to the show notes.
TIMEA: Absolutely. You talk about a good perspective on the German market on how it is with development developer numbers.
FRANZISKA: And. If my resources allow me to do so, I will do a second iteration. I’m just waiting for a couple more steps to come in, particularly the main source of information. That I used, which was. From the federal agency. Of employment in Germany about the numbers of it. Folks. They basically did this very, very indepth study and I’m. Just dying to get the new numbers so that I can do. I can see how Corona impact the industry story because the signals that does, but it somehow also doesn’t because it’s kind of resilient and so forth. So this is really sitting and what I have been doing is I have been trying together other sources in the meantime that. Can then sort of be implemented there as well. And I really. Hope that I can do. That second video soon to make sure that we have a better understanding of the Corona of how the tech industry is currently what they all currently is there.
TIMEA: I’m gonna keep an eye on that.
RAMÓN: Yeah, you know what Timea and I actually briefly touched upon doing how the pandemic has impacted employment and the gender discrimination that comes with it. So definitely something to keep an eye out
FRANZISKA: The central question that I haven’t yet been able to Answer is we Have seen how women Leave the workforce in droves because of Corona and how that impacted where We haven’t had gotten a good understanding Is, do women leave stem jobs and in particular tech jobs Because of that as well in? Or does it not affect anything We Don’T have any answers on This at this point. Right? We do know that women proportionately leave tech jobs More than men do and Quicker. But we haven’t seen how Corona interplays with that. And for me It’S just not on the one hand, it’s a spreading topic. But if we were to see that it Would impact, there Would also be a tragic topic and It would lead me to think, what can we do to make sure that does not impact any more negatively than it already does?
TIMEA: Yes, it’s hard enough as it is. So last question. If you could go back and start over, Let’s say on your career path, would you change anything?
FRANZISKA: I have thought about this with the experiences that I had. Not just because you asked. Probably not much because I’m also big and from believer in you need to Make your mistakes to learn from Them. And again, when we look at sort of the gender disparity there, there’s often the expectation That women need to be more perfect Than they Need to Prove themselves more. I say no, go forth and make mistakes. It’s Important But again Can they Afford making mistakes? That’s a good question. But what I would probably Change is starting Out my Career. For Me. I think salary was not a big Topic At that point. I do come from a working class background. So it was more like At some point I need to earn enough so that I can make a living. But I wasn’t very strong, very adamant About it at the beginning of my career. And I think that I would change I would be More verbal about what kind Of salary I would want And also be more conscious about the fact they are living with chronic Illnesses and me not having status in Germany, which is another thing entirely and very complicated I need to make sure that I have a living that enables me To live a Life. That Where I can just spontaneously By medication. If there was a medication for me, for example, but It’S. It’s so imperative that just this week I saw this big study of women no so much about salary. And it’s more about the acknowledgment that they get In the job. And I’m Like, Yeah, that’s true in a way. But why shouldn’t we look More toward salary, why shouldn’t we be strong or. No I’m not going To get less pay than the colleague. And Oftentimes this happens Sort of in a very covered Way because people Don’T talk about it So talk to your colleagues. Make sure that you are up to date with what everyone is earning a decent Germany. And then The laws, according to Germany You are Allowed to talk about your salary even though contracts Say differently. So also having that knowledge about What is what you are contractor able to do and whatnot So having that knowledge that I have now I would go in with a completely Different mindset and I would be Much more of an advocate for myself Then I have been in That situation and I can give the advice to all of the young folks out there starting now. Be Very Strong on what you can get. Try to do the Research. But then we also very vocal About what you should get in that scenario from employers and Getting your fair share. That’s what It’S all about for the hard work that you put in.
RAMÓN: Amazing. Thank you so much. Wonderfully put. Well, I could stay in chat forever, but that we want to be respectful of your time before we wrap up. Is there any place where folks can get in touch with you that you would like to tell them about? And is there any organization or resource out there that you’d like to give a shout out to before we go?
FRANZISKA: Good question as the places currently we’re all online anyway, but I mostly to be found at Twitter, LinkedIn, so this is where I usually regularly post and also Exchange with folks A lot Basically sort of broadcast my wisdom to the world. But as for organizations, there are organizations, communities, there are so many. I don’t feel like I would do one Justice if I mentioned just one. But what I’m a big fan of is obviously initiatives Like the ones You are leading. So be that women Techmakers be that women who code be that. Oh, my goodness. I’m probably forgetting all of the important ones, but also initiatives That Like the accessibility club, for example, that I’m part Of as a co organiser in Berlin for the accessibility group Then there are some what I haven’t yet seen is sort of a group for folks in tech who live with disabilities, chronic illnesses and Neurodiversity. That Might be interesting. So I do see there’s A gap where We could link up a little bit more, but generally anything that helps Women and people in marginalized groups thrive In tech I’m a big fan of that and I support that and I’ve probably spoken at a Couple of them, so always A reason To be there.
TIMEA: Okay, then we’ll have to. We’ll have to share those to them. Or rather just take it as an opportunity as a shout out to everybody who feels attached by that because we want to invite you on our podcast. We have a series on gender equality role models such as Franziska today at the show. But we also showcase gender equality, organization, role models and on all aspects. Not just necessarily gender quality could also be in other aspects of diversity. You are more than welcome to reach out.
RAMÓN: Well, this has been an absolute delight. Franziska Timea. Thank you both so much and to our listeners. Thank you so much for tuning in. Get in touch. Let’s chat. Take care, everybody.
TIMEA: Goodbye and thanks Franziska. Goodbye.
TIMEA: Are you on the forefront of gender equality? You are invited on our podcast.
RAMÓN: That’s right. Or maybe you know somebody that we could have a chat with on gender quality. You should totally get in touch with us. We’re on Twitter @GenderCoffee. Or any of the other contact methods on our show notes, we would love you to get in touch and for us to have a chat.